Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is “The Rogue Prince, or, A King’s Brother: a consideration of the early life, adventures, misdeeds, and marriages of Prince Daemon Targaryen, as set down by Archmaester Gyldayn of the Citadel of Oldtown”, which appears in the anthology Rogues, edited by George R.R. Martin and Gardner Dozois.
Previous entries of the Read are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual section covered and for the material covered previous to this post. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
The Rogue Prince
What Happens
Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both.
After the loss of his son and heir Baelon, Old King Jaehaerys I made Ser Otto Hightower his Hand, and Otto’s daughter Alicent became the ailing king’s constant companion, to where he sometimes mistook her for one of his own daughters. When he died, his grandson Viserys succeeded him. Viserys had only one living child, his daughter Rhaenyra, upon whom he doted. Viserys I’s reign was peaceful and happy, and his daughter was adored by all the kingdom, becoming a dragonrider at the age of seven. The only fly in the ointment was Viserys’s wild younger brother, Daemon.
Daemon had been married young to the Lady of Runestone, but could not stand her, referring to her as “the bronze bitch” and finding any excuse to be gone from Arryn’s Vale. Viserys put him on the small council, but Daemon was bored by governance, and instead was soon put in charge of the ramshackle City Watch, which he reformed and outfitted with their now-iconic gold cloaks. His methods of law enforcement were successful but often excessively brutal, and he gained a notorious reputation as a gambler and lecher in the low neighborhoods of the capital.
Though Viserys refused to acknowledge Daemon as his heir, he was tolerant of his brother’s excesses, and Princess Rhaenyra adored him. Ser Otto Hightower, however, disliked him intensely, and wrote to his brother that Daemon would be “another Maegor the Cruel” if allowed to take the throne. Otto wanted Rhaenyra to succeed her father, but primogeniture precedent indicated that Daemon’s claim exceeded Rhaenyra’s. In the same year that Queen Aemma became pregnant, Ser Criston Cole was appointed to the Kingsguard, and Rhaenyra was smitten with him, and asked that he be made her personal bodyguard. Also at this time Ser Harwin Strong, called “Breakbones” joined the court from his father’s hold at Harrenhal.
Queen Aemma and her child both died at the birthing. When Viserys heard that Daemon had been jesting about it in a brothel that same day, he was livid, and soon after formally declared Rhaenyra his heir. Furious, Daemon left court and went to Dragonstone with his concubine Mysaria. When she became pregnant, Daemon gave her a dragon’s egg, but Viserys commanded that he take it back and go home to his wife. Daemon did so, sending Mysaria back to Lys, but she lost the child during a storm at sea, and Daemon’s heart hardened against Viserys thereafter.
Viserys was urged to remarry, but rejected the idea of wedding Lady Laena Velaryon, who was only twelve, and announced that he would marry Lady Alicent Hightower instead. Lord Corlys Velaryon was displeased at his daughter being scorned by the royal family just as his son and wife had been in earlier years. Lord Corlys skipped the wedding to meet with Prince Daemon instead, and they concocted a scheme to annex the Stepstones from the Triarchy, who had been demanding more and more exorbitant fees for ships to pass them in the Narrow Sea. Viserys supported their efforts from afar, counting it well worth it to keep his brother out of mischief.
Alicent birthed Aegon, Helaena and Aemond in quick succession, but Rhaenyra kept her favored position despite Alicent and her father Otto’s objections. Eventually Viserys stripped Otto of his position as Hand and sent him away to shut him up. Peace was maintained on the surface between the queen’s advocates and the princesses, but some observed that the dragons of each group tended to snap and spit flame at each other. At the infamous tourney where the “greens” and “blacks” earned their names, Daemon appeared, styling himself “King of the Narrow Sea”, but he immediately knelt to his brother, who welcomed him home.
Daemon soon returned to his debauching ways, but also struck up a great friendship with his niece Rhaenyra. There are conflicting accounts as to how he fell out again with the King. Septon Eustace wrote that Daemon had seduced Rhaenyra, and that Viserys sent Daemon away after she begged to marry Daemon despite him already being married. The court fool Mushroom, on the other hand, claims that Daemon gave Rhaenyra extensive “lessons” in the sexual arts in order that she might seduce Ser Criston Cole, but that Cole was horrified by her advances. Whichever is true, Viserys exiled Daemon, and he returned to the Stepstones. Ser Criston Cole became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
Princess Rhaenyra’s hand in marriage had long been hotly contested. Viserys rejected Alicent’s idea to wed her to Aegon, and instead settled on Laenor Velaryon, despite the open secret that Laenor preferred his “handsome squires” over women. Rhaenyra objected violently until Viserys threatened to remove her from the succession, upon which she agreed to the marriage. However, according to Mushroom, she then made one last attempt to seduce Ser Criston Cole, and when he rejected her again, went to the bed of Ser Harwin Strong instead. True or not, thenceforth Ser Cole was the princess’s most bitter enemy.
Rhaenyra and Laenor’s wedding was attended by both Ser Harwin and Laenor’s favorite Ser Joffrey Lonmouth. At the tourney, Ser Criston Cole made a point of maiming both knights severely, and Ser Joffrey died of his wounds soon after. Laenor returned to Driftmark thereafter and acquired a new favorite (Ser Qarl Correy), only returning sporadically, and Ser Harwin remained at court with the princess. Some doubted that the marriage was ever consummated, though Mushroom claimed that the princess enjoyed watching Laenor and Qarl together, even as he also claimed she left Laenor on those nights to be with Harwin instead.
Rhaenyra soon gave birth to Jacaerys, officially Laenor’s son, though the boy looked nothing like him. Viserys ordered that Jacaerys and Alicent’s youngest son Daeron should share a wet nurse in hopes of fostering a bond between them, but this would prove to be in vain. A year later Daemon’s long-estranged wife died in a fall from her horse; Daemon tried to secure her lands and fortune, but was informed in no uncertain terms that he was not welcome in the Vale. Daemon then went to Driftmark, where he met and supposedly fell in love with Lady Laena Velaryon, now twenty-two years old. He killed her betrothed in a duel, and wed her two weeks later. Laena and Daemon traveled extensively abroad thereafter to avoid Viserys’s wrath.
Rhaenyra meanwhile gave birth to her second son Lucerys, who also looked more like Ser Harwin Strong than his official father. Alicent’s cutting commentary on Rhaenyra’s sons’ lack of resemblance to their father deepened the animosity between the women, and Rhaenyra soon began residing at Dragonstone full time. In Pentos, Laena gave birth to twin daughters, named Baela and Rhaena, and Viserys once again reconciled with Daemon and allowed them back at court. Rhaenyra later had a third son, named after Laenor’s friend Ser Joffrey, who once again looked nothing like a Targaryen. Nevertheless Viserys gave each of her sons dragon eggs, and told Jacaerys that the throne would be his one day. Alicent’s sons resented Rhaenyra’s sons for ousting them from the succession, and their enforced closeness only heightened their enmity.
Rhaenyra and Laena, however, became great friends, and Rhaenyra soon announced her eldest sons’ betrothal to Laena and Daemon’s twin daughters. However, soon after Laena died in childbirth, taking the child with her, and it was said that Rhaenyra was there to comfort Daemon in his grief. Soon after, Laenor Velaryon died, stabbed to death by his own favorite Ser Qarl Correy, who disappeared thereafter. Septon Eustace claims jealousy as the motive, but Mushroom insisted that Prince Daemon had in fact paid Correy to murder Laenor.
After Laenor’s funeral at Driftmark, Prince Aemond, then still dragonless and smarting about it, snuck out to claim Laena’s dragon Vhagar for himself. He succeeded despite Joffrey Velaryon’s attempt to stop him, but afterward all three of Rhaenyra’s sons accosted him, and Lucerys put out Aemond’s eye when he called them “Strongs”. Queen Alicent wanted Lucerys’s eye put out in return, but Viserys only commanded that anyone referring to Rhaenyra’s sons as “Strongs” again would lose their tongues. He took his sons back to King’s Landing, while Rhaenyra and her children remained at Dragonstone. Viserys sent Ser Harwin Strong back to Harrenhal, which according to Mushroom thrilled Prince Daemon, who now had unfettered access to his niece.
After his return to Harrenhal, both Harwin and his father Lyonel died in a fire that many believed was not an accident, though no one could agree on who was behind it; the most disturbing possibility was that it was King Viserys himself. Lyonel had been Viserys’s Hand, so after consideration the king reinstated Ser Otto Hightower to the office. At the same time came the news that Rhaenyra had wedded her uncle Daemon in secret, and soon after she gave birth to a son who actually looked like a Targaryen. She named him Aegon, which Alicent took (rightly) as a slight to her own son Aegon (now the Elder). Rhaenyra had another son by Daemon, named Viserys, the same year Aegon the Elder wedded his sister Helaena, who shortly thereafter had twins named Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, who showed signs of birth defects. Later Helaena had a son, Maelor.
Meanwhile Ser Vaemond Velaryon was contesting Rhaenyra’s sons’ claim to the Velaryon lands and title on the grounds that they were really Strongs, whereupon she had Daemon remove Vaemond’s head and feed him to her dragon. Vaemond’s brothers went to King’s Landing to protest, and Viserys had their tongues removed as he had promised. Viserys wounded himself on the throne, though, and was much weakened. Alicent and Rhaenyra et al affected a reconciliation for his benefit, but things turned sour once the king had left, and the princess and her family left for Dragonstone again. Viserys’s health failed rapidly thereafter, and in the year 129 AC he went to sleep and never awoke.
The tale of Prince Daemon Targaryen’s bold deeds, black crimes, and heroic death in the carnage that followed are well known to all, so we shall end our story here.
After this the storm broke, and the dragons danced and died.
Commentary
Ah, so this is basically a prequel to “The Princess and the Queen” (and just when I thought I was done typing the name “Rhaenyra”, too). I see now why some people were contending that I should read this story first.
But, I did not, and honestly I feel better about following publication order anyway (Rogues was published a year later than Dangerous Women), so it is what it is. And having read TPATQ first certainly made this story easier to follow – if rather lacking in suspense.
What’s interesting to me is that it purports to be a study of Prince Daemon’s life leading up to the Dance of Dragons conflict, but that’s really only true of the first half or so of the story. The second half is much more concerned with the Targaryens overall, and the events leading up to the Dance, and Daemon himself seems to fall into the background of the account, at least in terms of being the focus of most of the events that occur.
Honestly, I’d have to say that my overall impression of this story is that it is a failure.
It would have been fine if this narrative had (a) been incorporated into TPATQ in the first place, or (b) taken a more personal, character POV tack, to contrast with the distanced historical account of TPATQ. But TRP did neither of those things, instead following the exact same format as the earlier story, but with none of TPATQ’s dramatic tension, owing to the fact that the audience already knows exactly where its events will end up leading.
Granted, the effort to introduce tension by presenting conflicting accounts of events was interesting in the abstract, and certainly capable of generating discussion (like, was Mushroom really the only one who dared to tell it like it was, or was he just deeply perverted and creepy in addition to having, apparently, the biggest mouth in Westeros?), but I would have been far more interested in getting Daemon’s actual point of view (or anyone’s point of view, really) than in hearing, yet again, a third-to-fourth-hand account of what Archmaester Gyldayn thinks we ought to know about things.
I dunno, but if I kind of thought this format was cheating a little in TPATQ, I definitely think it’s cheating here. Especially since it didn’t really even seem to stick to its thesis (i.e. an in-depth look at Prince Daemon). I mean, we learn a little bit more about him than what we got from TPATQ, I guess, but nothing that we needed to have an entirely separate story for, in my opinion. I would have wanted an insight into his character, but at such a remove and with so much unreliability in the narrator, that was basically not possible, at least not in my opinion.
Was Daemon both a monster and a great man? I think that he was. But I also think that both assessments hinge much more upon things he did in TPATQ than anything he did here, so again, why have this story at all?
Which isn’t to say there was nothing interesting in the story whatsoever. It’s an interesting moral cross-section, for instance, that Viserys was furious at Daemon for sleeping with Rhaenyra – not because she was his niece, but because he was married to another woman. I mean, I’ve known this about the Targaryens long since, obviously, but it’s still hilarious to me that incest is just fine but OMG adultery is beyond the pale!
(Well, okay, the offense is probably not even so much “adultery” as it is “messing up the lines of succession”, which in a way I can even be sympathetic about. I mean, if you already have to deal with charting sisters marrying brothers and uncles and aunts marrying nieces and nephews on a family tree, coming down on out-of-wedlock bastards is probably just more of an effort to avoid utter genealogical confusion than anything else. Though if you ask me that ship sailed ages ago. I mean, were Daemon’s daughters by Laena still supposed to marry Rhaenyra’s sons by allegedly-Laenor after Daemon and Rhaenyra got married?? Because if so, every genealogist in the Western world just threw down their pens and stormed off for a drink, and they don’t even know why. Good Lord.)
Of course, I have my own moral cross-section to deal with, since in my opinion the only thing wrong with Laenor’s preference for men was that he should have been left free to pursue it, rather than being forced into a marriage with someone whom he could never feel more than platonic affection for (unless you believe Mushroom’s tales of threesomes, of course, but even then his overall preference for his own gender is clear). But obviously that does not correspond with the mores of the time.
Although, it should be noted, the historical account barely even bothers to be euphemistic about Laenor’s sexual orientation, so it seems that in Westeros (at least at the time), homosexual inclinations seemed to be considered more of an embarrassing inconvenience than an insupportable abomination. Which is better than nothing, I suppose.
I also had a moment of wtf-ery when the story contended that Rhaenyra’s sons – who were six, five, and three (!!) respectively – successfully sliced up ten-year-old Aemond. Because seriously, has Martin ever seen a five or six-year-old stood up next to a ten-year-old? I mean, forget about the apparently deeply precocious and robust toddler Joffrey carrying out ambushing schemes and being all “You stay away from her!” when most kids that age can barely string a sentence together or run in a straight line, I’m really not buying that a five and six-year-old would not have gotten the tar beaten out of them by a kid twice their age (and height, and weight, and muscular/coordination development). Yes, they’ve all had arms training, I don’t care, that is completely ridiculous in my book.
But then, it’s been consistently established that Martin really does not have an accurate picture of childhood developmental stages across the board (and at this point I must assume he’s deliberately maintaining that ignorance for continuity reasons), so I guess that’s not all that surprising, but still. Sheesh.
In much more random notes:
(Lady Laena herself seemed untroubled. “Her ladyship shows far more interest in flying than in boys,” her maester observed.)
Hah. Yeah, when I was twelve, dragons would have won over boys by a landslide in holding my interest.
…Actually that might still be true. I mean, I can’t say for sure, obviously, but dragons, y’all. C’mon.
And:
(Amongst those thus enslaved was Lady Johanna Swann, a fifteen-year-old niece of the Lord of Stonehelm. When her infamously niggardly uncle refused to pay the ransom, she was sold to a pillow house, where she rose to become the celebrated courtesan known as the Black Swan, and ruler of Lys in all but name. Alas, her tale, however fascinating, has no bearing upon our present history.)
But let it be noted for the record that I totally want to hear that tale. I probably would have been a lot more interested in that tale than I was in this one.
So, yeah, I was not terribly impressed by this one, y’all. The Maester’s Cliff Notes conceit worked well enough the first time, but I feel like it should have remained a one-trick pony. Which is maybe a bit of a sour note to go on hiatus with, but what can you do.
And thus ends, for the nonce, The Read of Ice and Fire!
Which is pretty wacky. I haven’t been at this nearly as long as I have the WOT Reread, but it’s been nearly five years, holy smokes, so it ain’t nothing to sneeze at, either.
A lot of you have been asking what is next for me and the Read, other than the obvious answer of “wait until the next book comes out.” Some people have suggested that I should recap the HBO series, or cover The World of Ice and Fire companion book, or even do a Reread of the Read.
All of which are good ideas (even if the idea of doing a Reread of the entire series kind of makes my head feel like it might explode), but as I said earlier, I think it is a good idea for me to take a break from all things ASOIAF, at least until the head explode-y feelings die down a bit.
So the question of “what next?” will be tabled for the moment. I know, my darlings, but trust me, this is for the best.
I do want to take a moment, though, to say a sincere and heartfelt Thank You to everyone who has come along on this crazy long-ass ride with me. Even when I wasn’t enjoying it, I still got to enjoy that y’all were enjoying me not enjoying it, and that made it… uh, enjoyable, even when it wasn’t.
I swear that sentence made sense in my head.
But nevertheless! My point is, I have enjoyed sharing this experience with you, very much, and I look forward to whatever way we end up continuing to share it in the future. Y’all are all rock stars. Thank you.
And Happy Holidays, and Happy 2016! Mwah, my dears, be well. Watch this space, and cheers!
Please recap the HBO series!! PLEASEEEE!!
I’ve been following your posts for 5 years and I’ve been looking forward to your comments on the show, such as “Is that Bran? Are you kidding me?”.
Thanks for the wonderful posts!
Diego
Hah. A break is good.
When you come back though, i’m all for a re-read. I think you might find the experience of the books radically different doing a reread than the first time. Kinda like I have seen your approach to WoT be different since you know whats coming.
And not fearing spoilers, you could also google things and maybe explore some topics you didn’t realize/see the first time due to avoiding said spoilers.
I enjoyed this one more than PatQ. Partly because I found it much easier to keep track of who everyone was (though I still consulted the genealogy a lot) and explained the whys and wherefores of their interactions, and partly because, as I’ve oft complained, I find wars unpleasant, disturbing, and boring to read about, though GRRM describes them more engagingly than most.
So the story named after women is all about violence, and the one named after a man is all about sex (and sometimes its absence). Amusingly unconventional.
Leigh, thank you so much for this Read. I follow many literary blogs, but this was my first (2.5 years ago), one of the most enjoyable, and the one whose weekly installments I awaited most eagerly. I will miss it, but you deserve a rest.
I second Diego’s notion. A recap of HBO’s series from you would be awesome.
As far as this story, I didn’t even finish it. I agree with you that the format should have been changed. Having slogged through TPATQ, I was less than enthused when I checked out Rogues and read this story, especially considering some of the other strong stories in this anthology, including The Lightning Tree by Patrick Rothfluss, which is awesome..
Leigh – congrats for the nonce and thanks for all of your hard work and occasional head-desk-influenced bonnes mots. Keep em coming in whatever format you choose. I’m leaning towards an ep by ep recap of the TV show but that’s just me.
Rob
Hmm. That feels much more like an outline than a proper story. Perhaps a good thing for all those who are waiting for the next installment of ASOIAF proper, but also a pity.
We’ll miss you, Leigh.
I don’t advise you to watch the show. If you watch it you’ll have the actors’ faces stuck in your head when you read the books, and that sucks (handsome Tyrion, black eyebrows Daenerys, teenage Bran…).
Not to mention the quality of the show and it’s pseudo-spoilers for the books.
You definitely deserve a rest for providing me, and everyone else, with the only blog, and, as far as I know, only thing on the Internet, to cover someones first readthrough of the ASoIaF books. That being said, once you are in “a less head-explodey mood”, I wholeheartedly recommend, and eagerly anticipate, a reread, as I’ve noticed quite a few things that you missed, due in no small part to your abysmal reading pace, the first time around, and while TWoIaF is nice, you can honestly just go to the wiki if there are any things you need to know. As for the HBO series, I wouldn’t even bother. Aside from having been done about a million times already, it’s like you said at… some point: One of the best parts about reading the books is that you get to create your own visions of what the characters look like, while in the show, they have a defined appearance, and once you get that in your head, you can’t un-see it. I’ve unfortunately done that for a lot of ASoIaF characters, and now I can’t un-see Peter Dinklage as Tyrion, Lena Heady as Cersei, Sean Bean as Ned, etc. Regardless, I’ll let you have your break first, it was well earned. :) Once again, thank you for providing me with a great and hilarious read, and I eagerly anticipate when you’ll be ready to return.
Have a nice non-ASoIaF break Leigh! (but write again soon!)
And at least now we’ve made it almost ten posts with no spoilers!
Please do the HBO series. Pretty please?
I don’t know what I want to see more, your reaction when it’s faithful or your reaction when it diverges.
@8 & 9:
Don’t listen to them, Leigh! When I got into the books I had already seen pictures of the show. It was little hard to get my own image apart from the show but in the end I did it. Just keep in mind the little details (in the books Bran has auburn hair. Keep that into account and that way you’ll be able to keep your own versions separate from the show).
Thanks Leigh! That was fun and really enlivened my Thursdays and/or Fridays. You have earned your rest!
I very much agree that I too would have preferred a proper story. In fact, I would have very much preferred it if Dance of the Dragons had been a proper prequel novel. But things being as they are with GRRM’s writer’s block and what not, I am glad to have even scraps – which both PoTQ and TRP essentially are, being excerpts from the material GRRM had written for the World Book, which were published when eventual publication of the book still seemed very uncertain.
Now, this may be rather theoretical at the moment, without even a release date for The Winds of Winter, but I really urge you to read TWOIAF at some point prior to tackling it. Not only is it filled with very interesting additional details about the world, Westerosi history and some of the characters encountered in the series proper, but any discussions of the next book would be very constrained if we won’t be allowed to allude to that information.
How bad do you want to know what happens after Rhaenyra’s death, who Aegon III was, and what happened to all of the other kids and other people mentioned in The Princess and the Queen? If you want to know, read The World of Ice and Fire. I can’t say it’s great, but there are very interesting parts in it, especially those about the Long Night, queen Nymeria and Dorne, and the Conquest and all the Targaryens (particularly some we know from Dunk and Egg stories). I liked the Targaryen parts the best, they were the closest the book comes to a narrative.
It’s in a similar style to the novella and the short story you’ve just read – it’s a fake history supposedly written by a Maester, so you need to keep in mind that he’s not entirely reliable. I liked it better than The Rogue Prince, but not quite as much as The Princess and the Queen.
Also, the book has really beautiful artwork.
In any case, I definitely don’t recommend watching Game of Thrones.
For starters, if you need to watch it, you better stop at some point… definitely before season 5. Or even before. Because:
1) the show starts OK and gradually gets worse. Season 5 is unwatchable.
2) if you thought ASOAIF was too dark and cruel, the show is 10 times worse. They edited out all the parts that were about idealism, hope and human decency, and umped up the violence and nihilism tenfold, adding random deaths that don’t happen in the books, and rapes that don’t happen in the book.
3) the show is very sexist. A part of the problem right from the start is that the showrunners and HBO are incredibly concerned with catering to what one executive producer apparently called the “pervert demographic”, which also happens to be young-ish, male and straight; i.e. they want to have as many scenes with naked women ( young, conventionally attractive women) in them, so they’ll invent entire scenes and plotlines to get more T&A in there.
But that’s not all. The way Benioff and Weiss write characters and storylines is also a big problem. They turned a lot of characters into sexist (and other) stereotypes. There are also several plotlines where they marginalized or completely removed major female POV characters and prioritized male characters and their perspective instead.
4) It diverges from the books a lot and it doesn’t do them justice. It seems that you have forgotten a lot of the books due to reading chapters once a week over such a long period. If you start watching the show, you will start mixing up stuff from the books and the show. And at this point, it’s safe to say they are not telling the same story. It started very close to the books (season 1 is quite faithful to the first book), but then it diverged more and more. Many of the characters and their arcs are unrecognizable at this point. In season 5, supposedly covering the last two books (but not really, they had just a few plot points in common), for instance, they managed to miss the point of every single storyline and turn it into its opposite.
So, if you want to watch the show, it would be better wait until you’ve finished the book series (whenever that may be), or re-read the books, because otherwise, the show will bleed into your impressions of the books. And you may start really hating the books as a result.
ETA: also, 5) the show will almost certainly finish before the book series and will get to “spoil” it… This is, at least, what many people are concerned about. Me, I don’t even know if anyone can know what would be a spoiler and what wouldn’t, they’re making up a lot of things on the show that aren’t in the books.
We’re the ones who should be thanking you. This is free entertainment! Headdesking included.
I didn’t read these (TPATQ and TRP), so this was a nice way to catch up. I wasn’t impressed, but it’s always good to see that GRRM came up with this extensive history while working on the main books. It’s the mark of a great storyteller when their stories have their own stories. And story turns to legend, which turns to myth, and so are the days of our lives in this Wheel.
After your well-deserved break, I suggest watching HBO’s Game Of Thrones. Even if you don’t recap it. Especially because there’s already an excellent recapper working at Tor.com (Theresa DeLucci). If you do decide to write your reactions, that would be fun too.
Now here’s why I don’t think a reread would be fun.
Rereads usually work best when the writer knows a lot about the source material. They can inform the fans about things even they didn’t notice, and engage in discussion without fear of spoilers. See the WOT reread (both of them), or the Harry Potter reread for good examples. I don’t see how this can work.
Leigh doesn’t know all that much about ASOIAF and its ridiculous number of crazy theories (I’m not even sure if she knows about the big one). This is the whole point of this Read of Ice and Fire; that her first reactions would be fun. They were.
Not to mention that it would take at least another 5 years to finish it. And while that would be a reasonable prediction for when TWOW comes out (sorry, I had to), it’s a pretty long time.
Maybe you could put the ROIAF on hold and do something else.
After the holidays, how about a read of something lighter. One possibility, Eddings’s Belgariad and Malloreon and ancillary novels. They’re about thirteen books long, so you’ll be finished about the time the next SoIaF books is published.
@14: It doesn’t take more than a few months to read the books in a normal pace, i.e. not a chapter or two a week. If Leigh decides to do a re-read, I would recommend that kind of a re-read, not spreading them over such a period (which is the reason why she couldn’t remember many things in the first place).
If there’s a re-read recap, it could be something like 7 to 10 chapters a week, without long recaps, just the new things she noticed this time.
Thank you Leigh!
I actually never bothered to read this story. Once i learned that it was a recap of things preceding the Dance of Dragons, most of which we already know about from the main series and TPATQ, I just couldn’t be excited about it, and after I head similar comments to yours (about it being rather extraneous and not as interesting) I decided to forego it. So thanks for the recap!
Now that you’re in the same boat as us, so to speak, welcome to the ever-growing multitude awaiting GRRM’s next ASOIAF release (and by that I mean the real ASOIAF series, not these prequels and historical accounts and whatnot, and not even the Dunk and Egg stories which I like but not as much as the real thing).
I understand your need for a break from ASOIAF, having followed (and yes, enjoyed) your struggles with the series. While I would enjoy a GOT series watch, and definitely a ASOIAF reread, I am content to wait (for now). I really would love to have a no-holds-barred, spoiler-free policy on a reread at some point. Can I just suggest, when you feel up to it, reading the spoiler thread(s) from the read so that you might be educated on some of the things (fan theories, connections, etc…) that you missed? There are some real humdingers out there that will totally blow your mind. If/when you do read the spoiler thread or some of the fan site out there, PLEASE post your reaction on Tor,
Thank you, Leigh, for a wonderful ride! In the meantime, enjoy the WOT re-re-re-re-read and Star Wars (whoo!)
Thanks for doing these, Leigh. It’s been a lot of fun, and something I looked forward to every week. (I don’t think I’ll ever forget you reading the chapter before the Purple Wedding, going “Why isn’t he dead yet WHYYY WHYYY” and all your readers, or me at least, thinking “Just wait a little!”)
I would love for a recap of urth of the new son. You have tackled Martian now lets set our sights a little higher and do something with real thematic meat that will require research and as such really lends itself well to the chapter or two a week format.
Both this and TPatQ seem like worldbook scraps used to fulfill contractual obligations meant to be Dunk & Egg stories. Still we take what we can get even if focus and editing could have given us so much more.
A break is probably a good idea. The HBO show is enjoyable if you decide to do a new series. They get a lot of things right which makes the things they get wrong more annoying. Lately there seems to be a lot of internet hyperbole about it being the worst thing ever but I’m sure you can get beyond that. At least you know you’ll get to the ending with the show.
Thank you for what you’ve already done.
I’d suggest a read of a new series. From the accounts of JordanCon, you haven’t read Patrick Rothfuss yet, right? Why not make a read thread about his works?
I really have enjoyed this, its been a highlight of Thursdays. So thanks, Leigh!
I think a new series is probably better than a re-read, a re-read makes more sense after the series is complete.
Do you plan to keep avoiding spoilers/fan theories until Winds of Winter? (which I assume you will recap here) It won’t be easy to do, but I would love to see your unspoiled reaction when the Big Fan Theory is revealed in the books.
@21 there is already a reread of Rothfuss on Tor.com
So there’s a reason these short stories don’t really feel like proper short stories. Both of them were just plucked out from a much larger work called Fire and Blood, which Martin plans to release after the main series is over. It’s a very detailed account of the history of House Targaryen. According to Martin, the Dance of the Dragons section is an 80k word long part and The Princess and the Queen is just a 30k word abridged version of that. Same with The Rogue Prince.
Would strongly recommend you do NOT watch the show. I can’t echo the points made by #13 enough: the show has become absolutely appalling, and its sexism has gone beyond a joke. Female characters are treated like interchangeable rape dolls, and rape/attempted rape is their favourite new plot device. Other than T&A and rape, it’s become solely about shock plot twists, and the writers will come up with plotlines that make no sense just to get to the shock moment…
Thanks for the recap Leigh. You pretty much summed up what I felt about the short stories. Weirdly too dull despite adultery, incest, murder, dragons etc etc. I’d much rather have read about the Black Swan too, or Shiera Seastar in Dangerous Women. Perhaps the whole point is to show that the dragons didn’t mind that their riders didn’t *look* Targaryen, if they had enough of the blood? Is this leading us somewhere?
@dwcole 19 Implying that Martin isn’t the best author that is, ever has been, or ever will be?
@Auga 25 As much as I hate to defend the steaming pile of shit that is GoT, I don’t get why book-readers discredit the show for being sexist. They’re hardly worse than the books in that aspect, if ONLY that aspect. It’s pretty much just Asha/Yara’s absence and Sansa’s storyline. Penny was removed, but she was pretty irrelevant in the long run, and not exactly a gleaming example of strong female characters (She’s an submissive, emotionally unstable dwarf, for Seven’s sake). All the other rapes, beatings, etc that I remember from the show and worse were in the books. Hell, the show dialed it down at some points if I remember correctly. Regardless, I think the worst example of sexism in the show and the books, save for the given misogyny that comes with a medieval setting, is Daenerys’ utter fucking stupidity and incapability to rule, despite being a great leader and assertive, powerful woman in the early books.
@Booksnhorses 26 I think the point of TPatQ and TRP was to A: Give an insight into Westerosi history before the World Book came out, B: Provide an insight into ASoIaF dragonlore, and C: Keep the feminist readers on-side.
The link to this recap does not appear in the Index, which still lists the recap of The Princess and the Queen (part 3) as the latest post in the ASOAIF read.
Regarding the story – I liked it far less than The Princess and the Queen (which I found moving and tragic in many places, and even poetic at times, especially when it came to the stories about the fate of dragons), and it’s my least favorite of all the ASOAIF things, behind The World of Ice and Fire (which had some very interesting parts, but often suffers from info dumps and overload of information). But one thing I did really like about it were the conflicting perspectives and unreliable history. You’re often left wondering which version is closer to the truth, or if the truth is something in between or entirely different.
For instance, Leigh, you mentioned only Mushroom’s version of the Cole/Rhaenyra relationship, which claims that Rhaenyra tried to seduce him and that he was horrified. This seems really unlikely, at least if that’s supposed to be the whole story – because Criston Cole subsequently behaved like a jilted lover resentful of the woman he used be in love with, and he clearly hated and was jealous of both her husbands as well as her (probable) lover Harwyn Strong. Apart from the fact that Mushroom, who seemed happy to sensationalize everyone else’s sex life, seemed to have a major mancrush on Criston Cole and tried to portray him as a paragon of virtue that he most certainly was not (see everything he did in TPATQ, including his murder of the Great Council member right there on the spot, just because he verbally opposed him and the rest of the Greens in their desire to usurp the throne), Cole’s vengeful behavior was clearly not motivated just by a moralistic streak (not that I don’t believe he was a prude – he seemed to have a misogynistic, prudish streak and deep issues about female sexuality, which all came out in his love-hate for Rhaenyra).
Septon Eustace’s version, that Cole proposed marriage to Rhaenyra, asking her to run away with him to the Free Cities and marry him, and that she refused and straight up told him she was not going to be just a sellsword’s wife, seems much more likely and explains Cole’s later behavior, including his vindictiveness against Rhaenyra, Laenor and Harwyn. Of course, Mushroom would not mention that version as it’s not as salacious, doesn’t portray Rhaenyra badly enough, and doesn’t portray Cole as a paragon of virtue. It would also mean that, while he had a traditionalist view of marriage and sex/love, he was not above breaking his Kingsguard vows. (Not that we didn’t know he was not above breaking a bunch of other laws and customs, see above.)
But I think that GRRM probably meant for the truth to be somewhere in between. So, if I were to guess, I’d say that Cole proposed marriage to Rhaenyra, as Eustace described, and she rejected him, telling him she was a princess and future queen and will not be a sellsword’s wife, and that she will marry Laenor. But she also suggested that Cole could be her lover instead – this is the part that Mushroom gets right. And Cole rejected that, feeling insulted, and also shocked that Rhaenyra was not the idealized Maiden he had been in love with, and that she had both ambition and a will to control her sexuality without sticking to the rules of how a woman must behave. Like I said, guy seemed to have some issues about female sexuality – if Rhaenyra is not the idealized Maiden, she must be a “whore”. And he wanted to be her husband, not just her lover – this is why he hated not just Harwyn, but Laenor, too, so much he would intentionally murder his lover – even though Laenor probably never even slept with Rhaenyra. (Yes, I think the threesomes were just a product of Mushroom’s overactive imagination.)
@20: They were not scraps from the World of Ice and Fire. The story was initially a part of the background told in A Dance with Dragons, but when the backstory got too long and detailed, it was decided to cut it from ADWD. Of course, I’m guessing that it got the current format – a maester’s history – only after it cut from ADWD and when it was decided it would be a part of Fire and Blood and/or published as separate stories/novellas.
@26: I have a feeling that we’ll learn more about Shiera Seastar in future Dunk and Egg stories and possibly also in the main series, and that we’ll also learn more about Johanna Swann at some point. The Johanna mention seemed like a teaser of a more detailed story that we may get in ASOAIF or in Fire and Blood, whenever GRRM publishes the latter.
@27: No, it’s far more than that. I could list about 50 or so of examples of sexism in the show, and changes from the book that were sexist. But I can’t talk about this here due to spoilers.
These people have wonderfully explained it (Leigh and others who have not seen the show, don’t follow these links):
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/117645193922/got-meta-depiction-vs-endorsement-and-sexism
and an series of meta on sexist tropes in GoT, with a focus on season 5: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/130545491877/got-sexism-season-5-masterpost
“Regardless, I think the worst example of sexism in the show and the books, save for the given misogyny that comes with a medieval setting, is Daenerys’ utter fucking stupidity and incapability to rule, despite being a great leader and assertive, powerful woman in the early books.”
Um, no, because Daenerys is neither “fucking stupid” not “incapable of rule”. You may be mistaking what actually happens in the books with the sexism of a huge portion of the fandom, which has decided that Dany’s problems in navigating an incredibly difficult political situation make her “fucking stupid” and “incapable to rule”. Which is especially interesting since her story in ADWD parallels Jon’s. Jon Snow is also an idealistic teenage leader who tries to implement huge reforms in a society that’s stuck in the past, but in spite of good intentions, encounters resistance, doesn’t read people well (including, especially, his own subordinates), and fails (as seen in the fact that, you know, he gets ASSASSINATED BY HIS OWN MEN), but nobody has decided that this means Jon Snow is “fucking stupid” and “incapable to rule”.
If you want to see a Daenerys who’s fucking stupid and incapable to rule (and whose actions don’t make sense) while the men talk down to her and are there to clean her mess (see Tyrion), and who’s also there to be the object of desire of a Nice Guy (TM) (see Jorah) and who turns into a damsel in distress to saved by men (and a dragon) instead of taming her dragon and saving others (see what happens in Daznak’s Pit in the show vs the books), watch Game of Thrones season 5.(Spoilery stuff whited out)
@28 – the post should appear in the index now. Thanks!
Could you do the the 10 sample chapters of Winds of Winter? That is not so much and it would fit perfertly for a read like this. And the sample chapters would provide a better ending for the read since most of them were edited out of Dance due to its lenght only.
I would hope you will post an update at some point what you are going to do. It would be frustrating if you just completely dissapear. But if you for excample post an update in January that you will return June but do not know if you will be blogging asoiaf or something else that would be just fine. But uncertaily waiting is the worst like the wait for Winds, it would be easier to know anything regarding how long the wait is.
Additionally I hope you would not blog the show. Many (not all and many can give constructive critisim politely) of the readers here seem really book purist that complain about all changes and how dark the show can be without noticing the flaws and the darkness in the original series. Not that the show is perfect but neither is the books and just because something is different does not mean is worse. They are their own things, there is nothing wrong with that, if things make sense within the show that is what matters not how it makes sense compared to the books. And they are equal in quality in my opinion.
And the show has gorgeous music, sets and acting that books obviously lack. But if you were to blog here the only thing people would focus on would be the things that differ from the books and no attention would be given to other details other than plot and characterations and that is not all the show is. So I rather now have this blog become a show bashing one.
@32: Trying to dismiss criticism of the show as “book purism” seems to be a popular Straw Man with show defenders. (Because it’s apparently not a valid criticism that something that claims to be an adaptation is criticized for completely changing the characters, story and themes and missing the point of their arcs entirely.) Unfortunately, the show isn’t just a bad adaptation, it’s really bad in itself, viewed separately. There’s no continuity between seasons, sometimes even between episodes (it sometimes seems like they forgot the things they wrote themselves previously… and going by some of their interviews and Inside the Episode segments, in some cases they really did), and in fact, many of the storylines and character motivations make no sense at all. This especially happened in season 5, when they diverged the most from the books. The Sansa Marriage Strike which was illogical on multiple levels (with Sansa, Littlefinger and Roose apparently all turning into insane idiots), Stannis burning his daughter and only heir, Ramsay’s 20 Good Men, everything Littlefinger did or planned, the Sparrow’s role, Loras’ and Margaery’s arrest, a sex slave offering Tyrion free sex because he’s so nice, slavers freeing Tyrion because he hit another slaver, a wildling fighter and mother letting wight children kill her because… uh, she’s just that sentimental about zombie children?, Tyene and her poison/stripping for Bronn, for that matter everything that happened in Dorne,… and I could go on. This seems mostly to be caused by the show runners being more interested in being shocking, than in telling a coherent story.
And what’s even more baffling is that they could avoided it if they had just stuck to the book storylines.
No one ever denied that the show has a great cast (with maybe one or two exceptions), gorgeous sets and great music. The problem is that it has a lot of atrocious writing. The more it diverges from the books, the more obvious it becomes that Benioff and Weiss are simply not very good writers. This just makes me all the sadder, because they are often wasting the great potential (for instance, they completely wasted great actors like Alexander Siddig, who had practically nothing to do, which certainly wouldn’t have been the case if they had actually adapted Doran’s storyline and book scenes).
And no, it’s not that people don’t notice the books’ flaws. That’s another Straw Man. Most people are well aware of them. But they can also see that the books’ flaws are not nearly as numerous or that awful, and that the good outweighs the bad. And I don’t know where you’ve met those book readers who think ASOAIF is not dark, everyone I know or whose posts online I have ever read thinks they are dark. But there’s a big difference between a dark story that has actual direction and themes and are actually about much more than “no one is safe”, “everything and everyone is terrible” and where the purpose of almost every storyline is just shock value and an attempt to get more Internet reaction videos, which seems to be what the show is all about.
@33 They didn’t even mention anyone and you already threw all your “strawman” cards on the table. What’s up with that? Did the shoes fit?
Thank you so much Leigh! It has been a unique pleasure to read your reactions to this epic and your break is well-deserved. The television series is now pure fan fiction since they don’t have a sixth book to base the next season off of, so reviewing it would be a completely separate project.
@34: What, you mean, an I a fan of A Song of Ice and Fire who criticized Game of Thrones and thinks GoT has turned into crap? Did I recognize myself as a book reader who criticizes the show? Oh yes! Behold my dark secret uncovered! Oh the horror! How can I ever get my credibility back now that I have outed myself as a fan of the books who criticizes the show? These terrible “book purists” who dare to notice that GoT has become a piece of excrement since Benioff and Weiss are terrible writers! They clearly just complain because the show made a few minor changes – such as completely changing the characterizations, stories, themes, killing and raping characters randomly. Those damn book purists, why can’t they just accept GoT as a nice piece of fanfiction, and recognize its quality, even if it’s non-existent? Why do they come to the show fansites to spoil your fun?
… Oh wait, this is not a GoT fansite, it’s an ASOAIF read.
My vote is either re-read (the book experience really is significantly different the 2nd time around) or the World of Ice & Fire. Recapping the show eventually necessitates a choice between definitively avoiding spoilers for unpublished material by stopping watching or accepting potential spoilers and watching seasons 5+
Happy new year everyone. Leigh, I look forward to whatever comes next.
@Annara Snow 29
1: I do think Jon is an idiot and probably is to idealistic to rule.
2: I was talking mostly about show Dany.
Leigh: I think you should do a PDQ Re-Read: Using your posts as a reference, but also using the spoiler thread: Which pretty much coincides with your posts. There are a lot of smart posters; who offer up a lot of good info and insight.on the spoiler thread. That should help bring you in from the Cold. I figure you can do 5 or 6 chapters a week. Then you could post your new found insights! Should be done by the time WOW comes out.
Just an Idea!
Thanks
@33 Annara Snow, I do not wish to write a long response, mainly because I doubt that you will read this after so long (I never remember check my post for responses). I just wanted to say a couple of things. I realize my post was slightly controversial on some issues but it was intended for Leigh who is much influenced by asoiaf purist by her decision of to watch the show or no rather than the average readers of asoiaf. There is nothing wrong with being a purist, I am a Harry Potter one, and sometimes purist can look the adaption as a separate thing but often not. So I wanted to bring a another perspective to the discussion because I feel Leigh watching Game of Thrones would get most comments from book purist and I just wished to offer my opinion what kind of comments the watch would get. And in addition I offered my opinion of the show.
Then I can not see how can you say the show is objectively poor when looking at the critic’s audience’s and award group’s responses and how popular the show is. You might say the show is overrated but if you are saying the show is terrible I do not see how that is supported by anything but comparing it to the books.
Lastly I based everything I said on things I have actually seen. In Tumblr for excample I have seen people writing essays on how the show is horribly dark but the books have this underlying hope that show lacks. I really did not mean to attack people personally and just do not feel how I was using straw man arguments against anyone. So I do not feel I deserved hostility you showed in your response. I have long refrained from commenting about Leigh watching the show because I did not wish to inspire a hostile environment. I do not respond when people post very negative things about the show, people can have their own opinions. So unless there is some factual errors in someone’s post if there is actually going to be a watch where we discuss the show I wish everyone could be able to post their own opinions whether Leigh should watch the show or not in peace even if you would not agree.
There is more that I could say but my post was long enough as it was.
All Quiet on the Westeros Front!!!
I’m looking forward to the new season like it was the 6th book. This is all the asoiaf content I can look forward to and, flawed though it is, I hope it’s enjoyable.
@41: “Then I can not see how can you say the show is objectively poor when looking at the critic’s audience’s and award group’s responses and how popular the show is. You might say the show is overrated but if you are saying the show is terrible I do not see how that is supported by anything but comparing it to the books.”
Yes, I can say that the show is not just overrated, but terrible, on its own, even without any comparison to the books. Professional critics and awards aren’t any kind of an “objective” standard, let alone proof of anything – critics and award shows have been known to shower terrible films and shows with awards and will continue to do so, if a certain film or show has enough support and lobbying in the industry in its favor. Award shows have always been about industry politics more than anything else, and I’m not the first nor the last person who thinks that many Academy Award winning films were terrible (Braveheart, for instance, is a terrible film in my opinion; Titanic is also poor; I’ve never seen Crash, but a lot of people list is an example of a bad film that won an Academy Award). It’s pretty simple – Game of Thrones is HBO’s flagship show and it has been throwing a lot of money into it, and HBO seems to be something of a sacred cow right now (if the show was, say, on Starz, I’m sure it would be skewered by the critics every week and considered a trashy show), and GoT is also still very popular. And now that Breaking Bad was over and not in the running for Emmys any more, HBO felt that its flagship show was “due” to finally get awards, for its entire run, never mind the quality of the actual season. In addition, people used to really like it back when it was still good (due to sticking to the book story) and many seem reluctant to say “The Emperor is naked”. It’s really telling that even some of the critics who have harshly criticized season 5 felt like they had to preface their criticism with an apology (see, for instance, the beginning of entry #6 in this article on WhatCulture.) (Though, fortunately, not every critic felt the need to do that – The Rolling Stone ran an article criticizing the Emmy Awards after the ceremony, titled “Nothing about this show makes any damn sense”, which particularly harshly criticized GoT’s win as Best Drama for a really awful season, listing some of the storylines (High Sparrow, Dorne, Sansa’s rape) as examples of really bad storytelling.)
Season 5 was terrible because it had terrible writing. Good cast, costumes, locations, music… can’t help when the writing is so bad. And this is why the show, when it veers off the books, gets really bad, not just an adaptation but as a fictional work in itself: Benioff and Weiss are below average writers. This was demonstrated amply in season 5, which was full of illogical plot points, contrived storylines with no narrative payoff, inconsistent characterizations (not only compared to the previous seasons, but also within the season itself), implausible character motivations, not to mention the abundance of stereotypes, some of them very sexist and/or racist, or the insensitive use of rape and violence against children for pure shock value (no, there’s nothing wrong with using sexual violence and violence in general as plot points in fiction if you are dealing with it seriously and trying to say something, but this was clearly not what was going on here). You can also find lots of Tumblr essays that dissect the season’s storylines from the aspect of narrative, characterization and themes, and demonstrate just how bad the season’s writing was. In addition, there was even some atrocious directing, choreographing and editing (see the fight scenes in Dorne – ironically, in an episode that was nominated for Emmy for direction).
So… It’s the end of June 2016. No word yet on WoW publication date. I’ve gone back and done a complete re-read including the combined Feast with Dragons arrangement. And re-read all of Leigh’s posts and comments. Still waiting. This is excruciating! The show has gone on into “fan-fiction” territory. Can’t wait to see how much of it is based on GRRM’s plotting vs show-runners’ inventions. I have to say, in spite of tending toward “book purist”, I have still been enjoying the show. The plot sometimes doesn’t make as much sense but the sheer extravaganza of the scenery, acting, costumes and characters has pulled me right in. Tomorrow night is last episode of season 6. Come on, George! All men must….. finish what they started…. Pleeeeease. Leigh will probably enjoy the show based on her often expressed wish to see some scene in the book depicted “on screen”. I guess my next time-filler will be to go back to the first spoiler thread and read all those too. I’m hoping that somehow I’ll know when Leigh starts blogging again. Not sure where to check. Maybe I’ll go peek at Leigh’s current WOT re-re-re-read and slip in a RoIAF question.
TPATQ and TRP are both excellent but they read almost like outlines. So, as I’ve said on Westeros.org, they should hold off on Dunk and Egg, combine these two, create a new series based on them, and title it Dance with Dragons. They could start the whole cycle over again.
Nice job Leigh
Do we have enough information to say Greens had fair reasons to be afraid for their safety if Black Queen were to rule? Especially “True ruler will be Daemon who’ll kill our children”. Also, seeing how much enemies greens and blacks were, I doubt reference in TPATQ about Aegon II not accepting the crown until he was told Daemon would kill them all.
Regarding Leigh – why read all the books and stories but give up when only one is left – the worldbook? Or why not read future book’s sample chapters or why not watch the show?
Also GRRM said he’s going to publish a new Targaryen prequel story this year. Will it be covered? Also it’s a chance to read the worldbook – to remember who was who and who had which story.
Sons of the Dragon is coming out this fall so… maybe that?
Sons of the Dragon is out now for some time already, any plans for new posts?